She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again?

[Cross-posted to Clintonistas for Obama]

I've been paying alot of attention to the recent "PUMAs" that have rejoined us here at MyDD, and a question has continued to cross my mind about what it will take to get these people to embrace Senator Obama. I never really understood why someone would want to vote for John McCain. But I do have someone we might consider a supposed "prototypical" deadender in my family. But before we go into, that, I'd like you to meet us:

First, myself:
Photobucket

But most importantly, the person this diary is about, my Grandmother:
Photobucket
(She'd kill me if I ever posted THAT picture of her; but it's the only one I have on my computer)

follow me after the flap...

The reason why I'm telling this story today is because I think it's important for us to share the personal stories of the politics that effect our lives...and this story is a great example of change in our current society.

My grandmother is now 79, although she looks younger and acts younger as well. She grew up in Arkansas, born before segregation was ended and less than a decade after women were given the right to vote on a federal level.

My grandmother has always been a wonderful person, full of kindness and warmth to those that are less fortunate, and working her entire life at General Motors, raising my wonderful mother, who passed away in August of last year, and playing a key role in my life growing up, raising me with my mother because of the lack of my father being in my life. One of the most wonderful things she ever did was accept and embrace my homosexuality; with her social and religious upbringing, I was SHOCKED that it came to her so easily, but I think it was more proof of the amount of love she has for her grandchildren and especially me.

At the beginning of this primary season, we didn't talk about politics much. She knew I supported Hillary and she has always voted for a Democrat; never for a Republican. She favored Hillary; but we never spoke much about Senator Obama; I was always hesitant to bring him up. When I was 13 (before I came out of the closet), I had decided to take one of my best friends, Crystal, to my school's homecoming dance. My grandmother, unfortunately, was not warm to the idea, because Crystal was African-American. She never really went far beyond that in an explanation; but I chalked up her misgivings to her upbringing, and even though I talked to her about things; I could never really force the issue. I knew that she was an amazing person; and intutively, growing up in the background she did, it would take more than a lifetime to turn around the societal norms that she had implanted in her head; however, she had always proven to be a very open minded person; she certainly never disrespected other races or people, and got along with coworkers and was kind to everyone she ran across.

But this incident was 8 years ago. I always wondered, if Senator Obama won, how would she react? I got to find out the other day. We talked about how Hillary had dropped out of the race, and I learned two things from that conversation. First, that she was heartbroken over the fact that she probably would never get to vote for a female President; but second, how hopeful Senator Obama's candidacy made her, now that he was the nominee.

She marveled to me that she could have never dreamt of having to pick between a woman and an African American for her ballot; but how hopeful that made her for the future of this nation. She told me that she's voting for Senator Obama in November not just because he's right on policy but because he gives her hope that maybe, one day, I could run for the Presidency too. We could never dream of a GLBT President right now...but if Barack and Hillary can do what they did, who's to say that someone in my community can't?

In a way, I think the experience of this primary has opened her eyes to the hopes and dreams of many minorities across this country, and many civil rights activists, that OUR TIME HAS COME. She could have rejected the hope and complained about the process, and held out and chosen not to support anyone...but she saw the hope that he provided to millions, and the hope that he provides to her, just like the hope that Hillary provided to her.

She chose to reject the negativity of this primary; and despite whatever tensions may have existed for her during her upbringing, has embraced Barack's message of hope and change. In many ways, one of the reasons why I support Senator Obama is that I believe we can do better--and he, just like Hillary, is one way we can start doing that.

Listen, PUMAs, I know how hard this must be. But if my grandmother can embrace the inspiration that Hillary provided and now Barack provides; why can't you? I hope--like her--that you see what we can do this November--how Barack being President would give hope not just to African Americans, but women, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans, GLBT Americans and everyone across the spectrum, how his win could provide us the idea that WE CAN do what we dream of.

Donate now:
https://donate.barackobama.com/page/cont ribute/standard?source=mainnav



Display:


Tips (2.00 / 21)

For hope.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 06:32:32 PM EST

Re: Tips (2.00 / 11)

Great diary. I voted for McCain in the 2000 primary, this McCain is not him, and he is no moderate. The Supreme Court status is very important, not just for women's issues, but this court is the most people unfriendly, corporate friendly court in history (and that's saying a lot). We truly risk it all by playing games with this, IMHO


by Dog Chains on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 06:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is an amazing diary. (2.00 / 8)

Your grandmother sounds awesome. It's inspiring to know that someone her age, who would have liked to see a female president, is able to get past her sadness and understand what Obama and his candidacy mean to this nation. It's a wonderful reminder that most older women aren't like Harriet Christian.

By the way, you're a real cutie!


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As a gay guy (2.00 / 7)

who adored his yellow dog Democratic grandmother, let me say two things:

1.  This is a great diary; and

2.  You're really good looking.

Thanks for posting this.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:48:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As another gay guy... (2.00 / 5)

I must concur. What is it about MyDD attracting all these wonderful gay Hillary supporters for Barack? :-)


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:23:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As another gay guy... (2.00 / 1)

I told DCDem that we should have started this blog:

http://www.hillaryshomosforobama.com


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 12:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips (2.00 / 3)

Tips from the ladies and the gents.  Now we know why you posted that picture. ;)


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, zcflint... (2.00 / 4)

This is a great diary! Kudos to you. My grandmother passed away 12 years ago, so unfortunately I can't call her now. She was actually a Republican, but I doubt she'd be one now if she were still around. She was one of those "Eisenhower Republicans" who never hesitated to exercise her rights, and she never stopped loving any of her family for being gay... And she never had a racist bone in a body!

I have a feeling she would have loved seeing Hillary run this year, and that she'd tell us all now to support Obama so that we don't get another 4 years of (Mc)Bush.


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And btw... (2.00 / 1)

What's your email? Please touch base with me offline at atdleftATyahooDOTcom. I have a special offer that I'd like to make. You've more than earned it. :-)


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stop blaming PUMA for your candidate short (1.00 / 3)

comings! He's proven them right that he's a hypocrite of the fist calibre! I saw the new Newsweek poll where he's down from 51 to 44 and McCain 41 from 36 - how's that working out for y'all? His abrupt sharp turn to the right, showed him for what he was, a liar and a panderer and yes a good ole politician maneuvering in the same dirty waters he so told us he wouldn't swim in!


by suzieg on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:41:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop blaming PUMA for your candidate short (2.00 / 2)

The first newsweek poll showed him up by 15. That was obviously way too high. Ths one shows him up by 3. That is obviously too low. Why should anyone take either poll seriously when all of the other polls show him with a lead of 6-8 points?

This silly meme that he's made an abrupt turn to the right has been shown to be false many times on this blog. You need to get out from Alegre's basement more and take a look at the real world. You might be surprised at what is happening out here.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips (none / 0)

You look fantastic and that's a beautiful story about your grandmother.

I'm afraid I don't trust Obama to stand up for progressive values and therefore cannot support him.  At this point, after the Harry and Louise ads, the constant disparaging of Pres. Clinton's record in the 90's, the recent comments about a woman's right to choose that he made.. I don't think he cares about the issues I care about.  He's constantly having to backtrack and explain that what he really said wasn't what he really meant.

There is more to one's choice of candidate than identity and being sufficiently open-minded about race, gender, or sexual orientation.  I do not like the implication that if someone is unwilling to support Barack Obama, s/he just isn't open minded enough to vote for a black man.  It's not true.  It's kind of insulting.


by daria g on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips (none / 0)

So who will you be voting for in November?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips (none / 0)

Listen, I know many African American PUMA's and others who just supported Hillary that will not donote to Obama. Sure, they may or may not vote for him, but they will not vote probably vote for McCain. Even though a McCain surge from disgruntled democrats is possibly quite possible, many Hillary supporters will very likely stay at home. I probably will vote down ticket or stay at home as well, right now, I'm favoring the former versus the latter of the two. Just yesterday, I had to turn down an Obama campaign representative from North Carolina when she called me for a donation. I had to tell her that any money that I had was going to go to Hillary to pay down her campaign debt. She seemed very heartbroken, and explained that based on my demographic characteristics [i.e., relatively young (30 years old), educated (post-graduate education), African-American male, and single]that I could not possibly support McCain. Even while she obviously pitied me, I also felt sorry for her that she would be calling a Hillary supporter to vigorously support Obama the way I'd supported Hillary. I'm sorry, but that kind of passion is simply not transferable after such a personally engaging and vituperative primary campaign.

I wish Obama the best, but I'll just have to sit and wait on the sidelines. No one will be able to anything about my decision on this matter but me.


by Check077 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 06:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (none / 0)

what it will take to get these people to embrace Senator Obama.

Change his name to "McCain."


by Beren on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 06:38:35 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 7)

Great diary. Rec'd.

One thought. I can't possibly speak for your grandmother, but I'd like to mention a possibility you may not have considered. Her opposition to a mixed-race date may not have had anything to do with racism.

Like a lot of people her age, she would have witnessed the reaction of people in your community to mixed-race liaisons. She would have been well aware of the tragedy that often accompanied such pairings. That might have had more to do with her reaction than any other thing.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 06:39:14 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 6)

It wouldn't help your case by starting off name - calling .

I can't imagine trying to convince my dad to send me some funds and I start off by telling him I think he is an a**hole. ( of course that would be after taking a shot of vodka to get my courage up )

I suspect my prospect of being successful would be marginal lol.

In the end I think the intent of the diary is not to  reason with such folks.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 06:46:17 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 5)

I almost am never in agreement with Lori, but she is right here.  The people you are trying to reach will certainly stop after your first sentence and the rest will be lost to them.  Ditch the deadender term and they may read the whole thing.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 06:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It still wouldn't matter. (2.00 / 7)

The only reason they'd read the whole thing (if at all) would be to nitpick their way back to their own premise. The battle lines have long been drawn, the sides chosen. Limiting or debunking their propaganda is about all we can do at this point.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It still wouldn't matter. (2.00 / 6)

I'm loving this comment.  It's like the third one from you today that I've just nodded and agreed with.

The diary can be about anything and they will take the opportunity to repeat the same busted talking points. Repeate the same smears. Over and over again. Diary after diary.

It's like Groundhog Day on every single diary.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It still wouldn't matter. (none / 0)

To be brief: Ditto.


by apolitik on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe she'll change her mind..... (2.00 / 3)

I really can't speak for PUMA and other like-minded Democrats, but I think they are embracing the politics of change. It's just a matter of what change means to you.

I think they want to see change in the party as much as you do.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:09:03 PM EST

McChange perhaps (2.00 / 3)


by JJE on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe she'll change her mind..... (2.00 / 4)


I think they want to see change in the party as much as you do.

No, they want to see their idea of change, exclusively. And they're willing to destroy the party and any chances of regaining the WH in the process if they can't get their own spectacularly small-minded way.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

let me guess (none / 0)

you see no irony in making that statement?

(Hint: it shows you doing what you blame others for)


by zerosumgame on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 1)

did you get permission of your grandmother before posting her pic online? just curious.. if not, then I guess the right thing to do is remove her pic from the diary..

haviong said that I do agree with your theory of deadenders.. that should change.. however we also dont want Obama to be constantly change his message of hope and change under the pretext of "finetuning" his own message.. this is democrats year.. it should be landslide..


by gladiatorsback on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:12:53 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 5)

did you get permission of your grandmother before posting her pic online? just curious.. if not, then I guess the right thing to do is remove her pic from the diary..

Are you serious?

I would think the diarists grandmother would trust his judgement.

It's his freakin grandmother!

Who are you to tell him what he should do with her picture?

STFU. Please. STFU.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:49:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (none / 0)

how old are you? have you no respect for privacy?


by gladiatorsback on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 4)

How old are you? Can you only make puerile pusillanimous remarks?


by duende on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 11:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 1)

I've come to the conclusion that you're the King of Comebacks on this blog.

Puerile pusillanimous remarks?  

Now THAT's the way to throw an elegant smackdown.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (none / 0)

Thanks spacemanspliff. Coming from you, the Knight of the Multitudinous Trolls, that's a big compliment


by duende on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 08:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (none / 0)

Well, he said himself that she'd kill him for posting the picture.

When you think you're doing something wrong, you probably shouldn't do it.  


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 03:48:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (1.00 / 1)

The 'change' is very accurate. His values (?) are changing all the time. Hope is diminishing.
It WILL be a landslide. The polls are even now and the GOP hasn't said a word. Say hello to President McCain.
It is really very sad for the country and the world.
You made a hugely bad decision, and it seems likely that we will all suffer for it.
by Marjoriest on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Get off your arse (none / 0)

And do something about it, then.  Many of us in the rest of the world would like to, so we may never hear the words 'President McCain'.  But we can't.  And we'd prefer it if Americans like yourself got their priorities straight.


by Mardarkin on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pay no attention to the "deadenders." (none / 0)

If you hadn't used the term they would have conjoured up a reason to be against the Democratic nominee while making it sound like concern.


by Beren on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:23:40 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack- (2.00 / 5)

I very much enjoyed your diary. I would love to meet your grandma.


"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
by redstocking on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:27:40 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 5)

Very nice

recced. Nice meeting y'all


by wrb on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:28:40 PM EST

thanks for this diary (2.00 / 10)

I really enjoy it when people are willing to discuss their personal political journey on MyDD.

Regarding the "PUMA" crowd - most of those people were never going to vote Dem.


by highgrade on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:31:55 PM EST

Re: thanks for this diary (2.00 / 8)

You got it. And it's real funny when their masks slip when they complain about Obama trying to get "socialized medicine," call him a Marxist or communist, and say that McCain's winning the war in Iraq which is part of the war against terra.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks for this diary (none / 0)

If you repeat it enough it will come true...no matter what the facts or reality annoyingly dictates.


by apolitik on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

PUMA's? (2.00 / 13)

A blogosphere myth.

Same 50 nuts circling the same lunatic fringe sites.

I love laughing at them though. SoCal Darlin has me in stitches with her quest for Obama's REAL birth certificate. Check it out at NoKKKwarter if you want a good laugh.

Now that's being delusional.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 07:50:16 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (2.00 / 2)

As a Hillary primary voter and currently an Obama supporter (Unity ticket promoter), I'm a little tired of hearing this particular line trotted out when it makes no logical sense. (I mean the "X is voting for Barack, so why aren't you?" where "X" is some former Hillary or even McCain supporter. But usually a Hillary voter.)

It goes like this:

1) I love my cat.  (I supported Hillary)

  1. My cat likes tuna fish. (Hillary supports Obama)
  2. Therefore, I like tuna fish. (Therefore, I must logically support Obama.)  

Except I despise tuna fish (except as sashimi.) And although I deeply respect Hillary Clinton, she doesn't control my vote. My reasons for supporting Obama are practical; I'm not enthusiastic about him, I continue to prefer Hillary Clinton, but I'll take either of them over John McCain by several thousand light-years.  Simple as that.

So it's a big mistake to go up to a former Hillary supporter (self-identified PUMA or not) and say, "Hey! This other person here supports Obama! What's YOUR problem, loser??!"   I think you can see the problem that question presents for a friendly discourse.  

The best thing you and others can do to defang the PUMAs is to get behind the Unity ticket and bring Hillary Clinton aboard the ticket. (Yes, I think Obama can handle her. Yes, Bill too. Give Obama some credit, eh?) This won't make all of them happy, but it will bring some of them over and will make the protests of the others sound even more hollow.

And it will help with what I think of the "silent PUMAs" -- Democrats who aren't, at the moment, convinced to vote for Obama but who have probably never visited a blog in their lives.  There are a LOT more of those people than there are active PUMAs and they carry much, much more weight at the polls. Those are the folks Obama needs to reach out to. And you as well.  Posting here isn't going to reach ANY PUMAs. The only ones who show up here do it to be disruptive (primarily. Might be a couple of exceptions, I'm not sure -- haven't been here that long myself.)

Anyway, a bit first step toward reaching more "silent PUMAs" is not to trot out the "Get on the bandwagon, vote for Obama like my Grandma!" line.  


by SuGeAtARC on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:13:22 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (2.00 / 6)

Yeah, but this is a bit different because this is a vote. Hillary and Barack are about 85%-90% on the issues, your not voting for a food product, you're voting for a platform, and it is clear 1 agree with what these people claimed to support for the most part, and the other is the polar opposite. And I know, I wasted a vote in 2000 (not that it ever matters since I live in MA) because I incorrectly thought Gore sucked (and boy was I an idiot). My inability to get passed that and realize that I wasn't voting particulary for a person, even though I admit that it is important, but I'm voting for my vision for a better way to prosperity for 280 million people and my future kids and yours and all theirs. Getting caught up over petty personality differences and ridiculous political fighting when we agree (on a lot of issues, maybe not all) has been the most frustrating part for me being here reading the Barack hate a thons at times. IMHO he isn't perfect, Hillary isn't perfect, MacCain is downright dangerous for America's future, not due to being a bad person, but due to the fact that he is willing to follow the current moron in cheif down a rabbit hole that has helpd maybe 50,000 people. Sorry for the long reply


by Dog Chains on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:26:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (2.00 / 4)

Don't be down on yourself for voting against Gore in 2000, I wasted my first vote on -gasp- Nixon, using the "devil we knew" argument in 1972 (please don't tell anyone that).

But your are right about the 85-90% agreement on platform.  Can't figure what personality issue can account for the refusal of the anti-Obama wing to consider voting for the policies if not the man.

And I don't think it is necessary for him to take Clinton as his VP although I would still support the ticket with her on it.  My real question would be if her primary candidacy has created such ill will between members of the same party, what would it do to the country if she were on the ticket in the general election?


by Susan from 29 on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 11:26:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (none / 0)

And what about the ill-will HIS candidacy created?  There are many of us who are long time D's who just simply cannot stand him, don't trust him, don't think he can accomplish anything and will in the long-term hurt the Democratic party more (a la Carter) if he wins.  Can you not wrap your heads around that?  


by emmasaint on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (2.00 / 6)

Actually, I have thought about that a lot and have tried to understand it.  When I ask for reasons I get responses very similar to yours: "cannot stand him, don't trust him, don't think he can accomplish anything."  Those aren't reasons, they are emotions.  

I have also received responses equally vague and meaningless such as, my favorite, that I don't really know him and that I will regret my choice, implying, Rovian like, that there is some secret reason to distrust and dislike this man.  But nobody will ever tell me what that secret reason is.

I watched Fareed Zakaria interview Barack Obama on GPS yesterday and was thrilled to listen to a statesman display intelligence and wide ranging knowledge of the world outside of our borders.  And he expressed himself in big, three and even four syllable words that were not sound bites or campaign slogans.

I have been defending Hillary Clinton since 1992 from the first comment she made about baking cookies.  My inbox has been innundated with the right wing conspiracy's (yes, I believe that conspiracy exists)BS for years.  I have argued using facts, logic and humor.  There is no way you can convince me that during a general election the evil empire that Rove built would not have gone after her again.  I think the attacks would have been worse than the ones they have mounted against Barack Obama and would have been more acceptable to most members of the public simply because they have been conditioned to accept such BS about Senator Clinton.  

Is it right?  Hell no, and I would have defended her once again had not her kitchen sink strategy and other campaign tactics left me in a position where I no longer could.

The real ill-will that Obama's candidacy created was created because he won it.  He is a superb politician who bested the finest political family the Democrats have had since the Kennedys.


by Susan from 29 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:56:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (2.00 / 4)

That sword does have a second edge, though.  I remember my bewilderment during the primary season about people who claimed to be Democrats yet repeated slagged both of the Clintons with a fury and hatred that shocked and repelled me. I can understand if you prefer Obama; he has many good points and Hillary Clinton isn't perfect by any measure.

Given that I grew up during the Clinton Presidency, more or less, and those were good years for my family, I just couldn't understand the hatred. The only successful Democratic President in 32-40 years (8-10 elections!) and the way supposed "Democrats" were talking about him, and some still do...I just couldn't understand, and I still don't. Please, please, please give me the day when the worst thing our President did was get a blow job in the White House.  I'll take that over tens of thousands dead in Iraq any day, year, or century. (I'm including the Iraq casualties.)  It makes me want to choke someone with a certain blue dress. Fortunately I'm not violent. (No, I don't have a crush on Bill Clinton. I'm aware he was a crappy husband. But he was a very good President.)  

The way I see it, they both campaigned hard, they both went below the belt now and then but not nearly as much as they could have, they both failed to focus on the issues enough (perhaps because there was so little to discuss on that front: "I believe yadda yadda". "I second that." Boring debate material!)   I don't see any reason to hate either of them.

Yeah, there are racists in Hillary's train. There are sexists in Obama's (and sadly his contains several prominent members of the MSM, which is infuriating -- but at THEM, not at Obama.) I'm just glad we have candidates for a change that piss these people off.

Sorry to ramble, but I don't get the hate for either of our candidates, or for either of their spouses. Heck, I don't even get the hate for McCain; oppose his platforms yes; stop him from getting elected yes; but hate him? No way. He seems like a guy I'd actually enjoy having dinner with, as long as we didn't talk politics. And I sincerely admire what he's suffered for the US. Which does not entitle him to my vote but definitely earns him my respect.

So in short...er, again...I don't get the hate. (Well, I hate Chris Matthews. But he's not running for anything, he's just a jackass.)


by SuGeAtARC on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 12:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (2.00 / 1)

Those years were good for our country, and I still consider WJC to be one of the finest Presidents we've ever had.  The relationship he had with his wife was no one elses business.
The GOP did more than use impeachment as a political weapon, they totally trashed it as a needed check of the Executive Branch. (and I'm not sure that wasn't the intent.)

All primaries are heated, but I believe that since the GOP took over Congress in '94 we have seen a new visicousness in political discourse. The fact that it has boiled over into the intra-party race is discouraging but not surprising.


by Susan from 29 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:24:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (none / 0)

Yeah, I noticed the timing on that downswing in the political discourse at about that same time.  Much later I read an analysis that said it was rooted in a "payback" mentality of the Republicans against the Democrats for the way they brought Nixon down.  I wasn't old enough to pay attention during any of Nixon's time in the White House, but this theorist I've read (who I unfortunately can't cite because I can't remember his name, only his idea) put the Clinton impeachment down to this effect. Sort of an, "Hey, we can bring YOUR guy down too! Just watch!"

Never mind that Nixon actually was a crook and Bill Clinton was just an oversexed schmuck. And now we've got another Republican president in need of impeachment, but it seems like Congress won't go for it because they don't want to start another round of retaliation.

I don't know how true this is, but it makes a lot of psychological sense to me, given the average age of Congressmen at the time (as in: unlike me, even if they weren't in office at the time of Nixon's mess, they were old enough to be following it and living through it, while I was more interested in see how far I could spit my strained carrots.)


by SuGeAtARC on Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 02:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you (2.00 / 1)

(Sorry for the long reply? Why? I love thoughtful replies!)

I think you kind of slipped past the point I was trying to make with my syllogism about tuna fish.  Let me see if I can clarify the logic by using actual political examples:

1) I respect John McCain.

  1. John McCain wants to overturn Roe v. Wade.
  2. Therefore, I want to overturn Roe V. Wade.

The first two statements are true. But the conclusion drawn from them is false because the first two statements are not connected. (Yes, I respect John McCain. I won't ever vote for him because of his political stances, but I do personally respect him.)

The syllogism I think you are proposing in return is:

1) I voted for Hillary because I always vote Democratic.

  1. Obama is a Democrat.
  2. Therefore, I will vote for Obama.

This syllogism would be true, but is dependent on the "I always vote Democrat" clause. Take that out and the syllogism falls into "possible true, possibly false, impossible to tell" territory.

Any time statement (1) is a Democratic policy plank AND the person is self-identified as a Democratic party line voter, then (2) and (3) will follow. But everything depends on (1). Because the only thing we really know about the first statement, for a lot of Obama-resitant Hillary voters, is that they liked Hillary. We don't know WHY they liked Hillary. We don't know if the reasons they liked Hillary can be transferred to Obama or not.

Try this one:

1) I voted for Hillary because she is female.

  1. Hillary supports Obama.
  2. Therefore Obama...

How do you finish that last? "Therefore Obama is female?" Clearly wrong. (...I'm fairly sure, LOL...) "Therefore in order to support women I must support Obama"? Kind of dubious -- the Democratic party is obviously more favorable toward pro-choice women, but I don't think EITHER Obama OR McCain is either (a) sexist, or (b) a champion of women's issues.  I admit that both of them seemed disinclined to take women's problems seriously, as it's an issue that matters to me, but I'd put it behind UHC (or something closer to it) and Iraq as "voting booth issues" for me.

Anyway, to make a long and pedantic point short:  There are many reasons people might vote for Hillary that are NOT directly transferable to Obama. And yes, there are plenty of people who would rather stay home than vote for what they see as the lesser of two evils. It's their choice. It's not the one I'd make but it's their vote, and it's not my place to dictate how it should be responsibly used.

So to really grasp the point, take the "open" syllogism:

1) I voted for Hillary in the primary because (Reason A)

  1. Hillary supports Obama
  2. Therefore (Result B)

You'll find a lot of Reasons that lead to the result "Therefore I support Obama". You'll also find a lot of reasons that don't lead to that conclusion at all. (Including the ever popular "I voted for Hillary because Rush Limbaugh told me to." You can see how that does NOT lead to "Therefor I support Obama.")

There will be a quiz on this material tomorrow.


by SuGeAtARC on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:06:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 8)

I have yet to meet a disgruntled Clinton supporter who isn't between the ages of 35 and 60.  Speaking in generalities, if you're younger Obama's message of change and transformation is appealing (this the demographic right now that's supporting him by ratios of 2-1 and in some states even 3-1, which means he's getting the votes of indies and some Republicans).  

Those voters who are older than 60, in my experience, generally supported Clinton in the primaries, but they also have a loyalty to the Democratic party which goes beyond personalities and would consider sitting out this election to be an expensive indulgence (again, just talking about the people I know, but the older voters who don't like Obama all that much don't seem particularly conflicted).

It's the baby boomers who are having a tough time, and I think there are several different issues in play.  One is generational solidarity.  Baby boomers are famous for believing that "the personal is political", and the idea that they should support someone they don't like all that much offends many to the core (in a manner which doesn't bother voters, I think, who are younger and older).

Another issue which doesn't get mentioned all that much.  If one looks at the sweep of American politics during the past 30 years, baby boomers, ironically, and very contrary to their reputations, are actually the age cohort which is friendliest to Republicans within the entire electorate.  

Older voters have actual memories of the Kennedy/Johnson years (when the New Deal coalition, one can see with hindsight, was experiencing its last glow).  Voters under 35 developed their politics during the Clinton/Bush years (when, in some sense, the contemporary Democratic party was at its best and the GOP was at its worst).

Many voters in this middle band, though, flip-flopped all over the place.  It's not difficult to meet someone who cast his or her first ballot for Eugene McCarthy in '68, McGovern in '72, Carter in '76, but then jumped on the Reagan/Bush bandwagon, voted GOP the next three times, then returned to the Dems when he or she voted for Clinton, but then got tired of that and voted for Bush in 2000, etc.  And that's just one path.

And the unifying thread, I'll suggest, is a belief in politics as a form of self-actualization (whereas older and younger voters don't believe in this quite so much).  

Who is your father and mother voting for?  And whom did they vote for in 1980 and 2000?  These are questions which, I think, would possibly shed more light on who has problems voting for Obama this year and why (your grandmother isn't really the problem, though it's quite possible your parents aren't the problem, either, since we're talking about a subset within a subset).

 


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:42:14 PM EST

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 2)

I have yet to meet a disgruntled Clinton supporter who isn't between the ages of 35 and 60.

Visit the Facebook group "Hillary Clinton for President - One million strong."  There are thousands of PUMAs under the age of 35.


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 11:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 2)

The US has 300 million people in it.  The number of people who will vote for Cynthia McKinney this fall could probably fill a small city.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:02:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 1)

No doubt.  I'm just trying to make the point that PUMAs aren't just a bunch of over the hill feminists.  


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:46:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Quite true (2.00 / 2)

their ranks also include Republicans and Dixiecrats.


by JJE on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No doubt there are exceptions (2.00 / 1)

but that does seem increasingly to be the trend on this site.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (1.00 / 1)

And I have yet to meet an Obama supporter that isn't naive....


by emmasaint on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:30:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 4)

Are you calling Hillary Clinton naive?


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:50:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 2)

You must not get out much.  More likely, you're just seeing what you want to see.  I'd never argue, for instance, that I've never met a Republican who was patriotic, smart, cared deeply about the country, and so on (but realize there are plenty of Dems who have this view that such voters don't exist, just as there are Republicans who would argue this the other way).  

Party loyalty is a curious thing, because part of its appeal to some people, clearly, is that it gives them an excuse not to engage those who have other opinions about things, and the backers of fringe candidates and causes are often the worst offenders (but we're talking about the most basic sort of myopia, one can't imagine politics w/o this element).


by IncognitoErgoSum on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:13:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have yet to see (2.00 / 4)

a comment from you that isn't stupid.


by JJE on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:26:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (2.00 / 10)

Great diary...especially this..

She marveled to me that she could have never dreamt of having to pick between a woman and an African American for her ballot; but how hopeful that made her for the future of this nation.

This is what gets lost in all the arguments about racism, sexism and how the Democratic contributed to it.  Someone please explain to me how the Democratic party and America has not made substantial progress in the rights of women and AA when our last two Democratic nominees were a Woman and an African American, who kicked the shit out of 7 white men.  This speaks volumes for our party and the citizens of the US..and doesn't receive the attention it should.

Thanks again, zcflint05, for an excellent diary!


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 08:43:19 PM EST

You're brilliant, hootie! (2.00 / 7)

This is what gets lost in all the arguments about racism, sexism and how the Democratic contributed to it.  Someone please explain to me how the Democratic party and America has not made substantial progress in the rights of women and AA when our last two Democratic nominees were a Woman and an African American, who kicked the shit out of 7 white men.

And that's the difference between us and the Rethuglicans! While we were making history (in a good way), they were busy promoting the same ol' bigoted white men. And we have "PUMAs" here telling us that Democrats should vote for the bigoted ol' white man that happened to survive the GOP primary?

Gimme a break!


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're brilliant, hootie! (2.00 / 8)

Sometimes I think we spend too much energy, as individuals, to search for things that we disagree on, rather than see the historical significance of what just happened in our primary...It's right before our eyes.

When the history books are written, the main thesis of this election year will be how Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and the Democratic Party broke every stereotypical, gender and racial barrier and paved the way for <fill in the blank with future women, AA, Jewsih, gay, Hispanic, etc.> presidencies.

That's what I will take most out this year.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack--why aren't you, again (none / 0)

Someone please explain to me how the Democratic party and America has not made substantial progress in the rights of women and AA when our last two Democratic nominees were a Woman and an African American, who kicked the shit out of 7 white men.  This speaks volumes for our party and the citizens of the US..and doesn't receive the attention it should.

It hasn't made substantial progress because that same Democratic party has folded like a cheap suitcase over the SCOTUS nominations of  Thomas,  Roberts & Alito, despite being in the majority. They are too fricking refined to filibuster.

And that same Democratic Party has deliberately recruited a bunch of candidates who are not for women's or AA rights. (can we say Langevin?  Casey? etc.) The country has made some advancements, but damn little of it has been due to Democrats in Congress in the last 10 years.

Why do Democrats do this?  For the same reason that Obama said Clinton's supporters will vote for me, but mine won't vote for her.  Women, and to a slightly lesser extent, AA's, have been taken for granted by the Democratic party these days.  

Heck, I'd feel more hopeful if the Dems even thought I was worth pandering to. ;-)  


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 04:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's voting for Barack (2.00 / 5)

Wonderful diary. thanks. I love these stories and you are right they do make things personal and much closer to home. Lucky you with a grandma like this :)


by linfar on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:22:02 PM EST

The reason is simple (2.00 / 1)

Since you are gay, may i ask for whom did you vote for? And if for Obama why? Hillary did a lot for our community despite taking hits from the right while Obama cater to us when convenient and is not with us when it does not suit him. So my question is why did you pick Obama over Hillary? I hope you now understand why many are not for Obama.

As for donating to Obama, i rather spent the money helping Hillary clear her debt and donate to local campaigns. And i did as i already max my donation for Hillary.

I'm in my 20s and i'm an optimist. I have lots of hope and i believe that we will be able to get a progressive on the ballot. Barack Obama has shown that he is not a progressive while our 'progressive' reputation has been attached to him. The irony of that. Politics is not a game. it affects the lives of millions. With 2 wars, 9 trillion in debt, healthcare, environment, and many many more problems that Bush had caused, the next President not really have to ensure things don't get any worse, but solve those problems as well. If Obama failed to do so, then the progressive era which took place starting in 2006 will fail alongside with Obama.

P.S. i know many who have been voting for democrats all their life but is not on board yet. PUMA had stated that they had raised 6.5 mil for Clinton. If this is true, then Obama has a much bigger problem uniting the democrats than he thought.


by stevent on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 09:59:29 PM EST

Re: The reason is simple (2.00 / 7)

I'm gay and I easily picked Obama over Hillary.  First off, I don't believe either one of them will do want I want - push for gay marriage.  Maybe that's for the best, but there it is.  Obama said he'd end DADT.  I think Hillary may have too.  So again, they're the same.

Expanding beyond gay issues to the many other things out there is how I made my choice.

Personally, I don't understand the disconnect between then sentiment that so much is riding on this election, and the refusal to help Obama.  If the next president is so important, and he will be, then isn't in our best interests to ensure a Democrat is in the White House?  I know as a gay man it certainly is.

Oh, and there's no way in hell to verify that number by PUMA.  And I, for one, believe it to be extremely exaggerated.


"No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown
by auboy2006 on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 10:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason is simple (none / 0)

The six-and-a-half million is what Clinton is supposed to have raised towards her debt, total.  PUMA took credit for all of it.


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 04:55:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Steven... (2.00 / 4)

I did vote for Hillary in the primary, but as a not just a GLBT American but as an AMERICAN, my only choice in the general election is to vote for Barack Obama. End of discussion.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 04:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason is simple (2.00 / 4)

PUMA claims to have raised $6 million for Hillary, but it seems they're counting all online donations as coming from PUMA members, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
And honestly, if you knew Hillary, you'd know she's a centrist as much as Obama (one reason why they are so close on the issues), so don't try to fool yourself into thinking she is a progressive.
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The reason is simple (2.00 / 3)

I am gay and I am also I gay Clintonista.  If you don't believe me, google my name and No25Cents and see what pops up.

But for me, the primaries are over.  Hillary lost. Barack won.  I don't like how it happened, and I already have my revenge list written, but it's over.  I cannot do anything that will help elect John McCain.  I have to oppose him with every fiber of my being.  I say this as a gay man and as an American.

No McSame!
Yes Obama!


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 12:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay, here's why... (none / 0)

A vote for Obama is a vote to endorse and support the onslaught against Hillary Clinton in the media (which supposedly the "netroots" hates so much).  By even having HRC kowtow to this Kennedy and be "interviewed" is an insult to her 18 million supporters, when she should be the obvious choice for veep.  It's an astonishing insult.  And for people like me, it's not about my "ego" on this matter--it's about saying "NO"--not this time again.


by handsomegent on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 08:56:03 AM EST

Amen!!!! (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.  My limit has been reached.  

And btw where were all you kids in 2004.  To me that was the most important election of my time.  In 2004, we had a chance to cut this war short, to stem the bleeding of the economy.  

Now it really is kind of too late.  Sorry to say.  2004 was the year to be motivated.  Now it is just picking through the wreckage of this country.


by emmasaint on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:32:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen!!!! (2.00 / 6)

Yeah, the Obama "kids" sure were to blame for the Kerry loss in 2004.  Nailed it on the head!

And you're right, it is too late now to stop the conservative takeover of the Supreme Court (only 2-3 justices likely to retire and be replaced, with the Court on a tenuous Kennedy-brokered 5-4 edge), speed the exit of troops from Iraq, and begin to undo the damage the Bush economic plan has wreaked on the country.

Why vote at all?

Sorry for the snark but these arguments make no sense to me.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen!!!! (none / 0)

Way to throw the supreme court argument back again. Original you are.

The Obama 'kids' are part of what makes this whole election cycle obnoxious. They are fooled by a man who is in reality not much different than Kerry but comes with a 'better' packaging.

For those of us who slaved over the 2004 Election despite reservation about Kerry it's really irking.


by apolitik on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen!!!! (2.00 / 2)

It's unoriginal to point out facts about who will be leading our judiciary? And I would say I know far more people who find you annoying referring to adults, who are the only ones that can vote 9and can be sent off to die for this country) as Kids. Grow up


by Dog Chains on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen!!!! (2.00 / 2)

Way to throw the supreme court argument back again. Original you are.

Got an answer to it?  Maybe you could stop worrying about my originality and, um, maybe, provide a counterargument.

And can you tell me how old I am, please?  And also detail exactly how much work I did or did not do for Kerry in 2004?  I only ask because evidently you know these things.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:54:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen!!!! (2.00 / 1)

Excuse me, but it wasn't "kids" who got Bush elected twice or Regan for that matter.

In any case, it is their future that this election is all about; why shouldn't they have a major say in it?


by Susan from 29 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 03:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Amen!!!! (2.00 / 2)

hey, you should probably think before talking, I don't know about all but I was going door to door in NH convincing independents to become the only state that switched from R to D, where were you???


by Dog Chains on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, here's why... (2.00 / 2)

This election is quite possibly our last chance to begin turning things around in this country, even though Obama is ideal.  Yet you sit here ranting like a spoiled child about what the media did during the nomination process-- it did it equally to Obama btw --as if we can afford the luxury of such petty things.  You need to seriously reflect on whether or not you're blowing things out of proportion.  Your outrage over the Annie Oakley remark and the shoulder brushing takes one's breath away.  It was a heated contest and Clinton said things that were every bit as ugly.  It's simply amazing that anyone would cling to these things as if they were the most egregious attacks possible.


by Philoguy on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm trying to understand, really (2.00 / 2)

How is a vote for Obama an endorsement and support of "the onslaught against Hillary Clinton in the media"?

I ask this in all sincerity because I fail to see how my vote for Obama will be interpretted that way or by whom.  I find it impossible to believe that if those upset by the media coverage during the primary (and that would include me) stay home or vote McCain somehow that will causethe media to rethink itself.  

The media does not respond to evidence of its power -- which is what such an action would seem to suggest.  They may respond to things like angry letters to sponsors and boycotts.  

I am one of her 18 million supporters and don't feel the least bit insulted by her interviewing for the job of VP.  I doubt the questions are about her qualifications; I would assume the interview exists to make her strongest case for being on the ticket.    


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm trying to understand, really (none / 0)

Yeah, that was pretty illogical IMO as well.  

As the game being played upthread,

  1. MSM mean to HRC
  2. Obama is Nominee
  3. How could I ever vote for Obama

See, you cannot even make a game out of it there is so much disconnect.

You know the MSM doesn't cover John McCain gaffes at all.  In order to avoid validating that, I am not going to vote for Obama.  See, I have frozen ice in my head


by KLRinLA on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 04:39:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two realities (2.00 / 5)

Dear zcflint05,

Although at 58 I am not as old as your grandmother, I may be closer to the age of your mother and I too am voting for Obama.

But what this race has already revealed it that there are two separate realities involved.  We all look at the same facts (usually) but the conclusions drawn are at times so contradictory that it doesn't seem possible that we even share a common language.  And this is only amongst the Democrats.

Remember that the differing reality was actually started when Bush looked at all of the facts and decided that the only way to remove the threat of bin Laden was to depose Saddam Hussein through military force.

The fact is that the PUMAs and others like them will not vote for Barack Obama under any circumstances and trying to discuss it rationally with them doesn't really resolve anything.  Humor doesn't work either, BTW as was shown yesterday in the Why Would Any Fool Vote for Obama diary.

Your energy might be better directed towards the dissatisfied Republicans who don't recognize the Bush reality and the Independents who don't know enough about our candidate to make a decision yet. That is probably where the race will be decided.

Good luck (you're already very fortunate in your choice of grandmothers)


by Susan from 29 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:09:32 AM EST

Re: Two realities (2.00 / 3)

Humor doesn't work either, BTW as was shown yesterday in the Why Would Any Fool Vote for Obama diary.

No, but it was fun to write. :)
"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:17:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two realities (2.00 / 1)

Fun to read, too!


by Susan from 29 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Grandma would be shocked (none / 0)

People have different reasons for not supporting Obama. We don't all think alike and my ideology and values are not the same as yours.

It's nice that you and your grandmother see eye to eye when it comes to voting though. Also, does your grandmother know that you've posted her image on the Internet for all to see? :D


by soyousay on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:03:38 PM EST

I'd imagine (none / 0)

the diarist has a better notion of what his Grandma thinks about posting her picture than you do.


by JJE on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I didn't ask your opinion (none / 0)

Did I ask you?


by soyousay on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Did the diarist (2.00 / 1)

ask for your opinion?  Did say "Please, dipshits, weigh in on the propriety of posting my grandma's picture"?


by JJE on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did the diarist (none / 0)

FYI: I asked a question to the diarist in reference to his grandmother. I didn't say I personally knew what his grandmother was thinking. It's pretty obvious who the question was for. Furthermore, I thought my post was rather non-confrontational....Why are you trying to make it confrontational?


by soyousay on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever (2.00 / 1)

"Does your Grandma know you did this?".  Maybe it's none of your business and you should take your own advice and STFU.


by JJE on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

angry? (none / 0)

STFU
I see that you're angry. That's fine, but it's really not your place to tell me what questions I can or cannot ask the diarist. Grandma is the subject of this diary, therefore I'm going to ask questions in reference to the subject whether you like it or not.


by soyousay on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:07:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Got it (2.00 / 1)

You're free to ask the diarist questions, but I am not to weigh in on your comments questions unless requested by you.  

I see that you'd like to have it both ways.  That's fine, but it's not really your place to tell me what comments I can or cannot make.  Therefore I'm going to point out the stupidity of your questions whether you like it or not.


by JJE on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Got it (none / 0)

You're free to ask the diarist questions,
gee thanks?
but I am not to weigh in on your comments questions unless requested by you.
Well, I was starting to think that you were the diarist's spokesperson; it sounded as if you were answering for him, IMO of course.
I see that you'd like to have it both ways.
You can ramble away, but I don't think that you can read the diarist's mind or answer for him for that matter.
That's fine, but it's not really your place to tell me what comments I can or cannot make.
go for it, but like I said before, I wasn't addressing you because I didn't think you speak for the diarist. Personally, I don't think you can speak for the diarist, but that's just my opinion.
Therefore I'm going to point out the stupidity of your questions whether you like it or not.
That's fine but IMO, it's not a stupid question at all. If one of my family members posted a picture of me on the internet, I would want to know. I think it's a valid question whether you think it's stupid or not. You have a right to your opinion and so do I. Peace.


by soyousay on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 02:33:24 PM EST
[ P