MyDD :: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks

For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks

by itsthemedia, Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:05:06 AM EST

Hey Obama fans,

Full disclosure up front. I am a former Dodd supporter, now Clinton supporter, willing to vote for Obama if (you might say when) he is the party's nominee. We need to talk.

If you really, truly think Obama has the nomination locked up, I don't understand why you are posting so many diaries and comments to that effect, especially in the mocking tone I have seen all too often. (Yes, we can do math - some of us have degrees in it.) If, as an Obama supporter, you really think that there is NO WAY Clinton can win, you should be spending all your time starting RIGHT NOW trying to make nice with as many Clinton supporters as you can. Don't wait to start the healing - reach out now before the wounds go any deeper.

I am not talking about making nice with the so called "Clinton supporters" around here who bear a striking resemblance to right wing sock puppets from Free Republic. You can just ignore them, as Obama is never getting their votes. Why waste energy?

There are a bunch of real Hillary Clinton supporters on this very web site who are solid Democratic voters, looking for a reason to back down from their promise to never vote for Obama in the GE. There are a bunch more who are barely hanging onto their determination to vote for the Democratic nominee, and hoping not to be pushed over the edge.

Maybe you could try giving them a reason to stay with the party, by being understanding and gracious and unifying in victory. When they hold out a slim hope that the candidate for whom they have worked and voted and donated all these months may still win, why not just let them have their ray of hope? What can it hurt, if Obama has it locked up anyway? Let the democratic process take its full course. On top of that, it is more in keeping with Obama's stated goal of taking some of the poison and acrimony out of political discourse.

Or you could continue with the insults, and trash talking, and rubbing their noses in the delegate counts, and angry recriminations every time someone utters the sacrilege that Hillary still has a chance. Have your fun. Just remember that most of them are activists, and probably influence the votes of many of their less politically aware friends.

Tags: Obama (all tags)

Permalink :: 52 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (1.50 / 2)

Barring some unforeseen event there is no way Hillary can win and I have been trying to be at least cordial with Hillary supporters. It is a tricky business sometimes and the abuse can be fairly thick. It reminds me of dealing with wounded animals, frankly.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:09:11 AM EST

Huh? (2.00 / 0)

I think they are both still extremely valuable candidates. More and more of you folks are beginning to make no sense. Why can't you all just chill and let the candidates do their thing?

By the way, right now Hillary is ahead in the polls. I think this is an unusual election but perhaps what it all comes down to in the end is turnout and electability.

I increasingly think that this historic election season is going to end in a historic victory.

Hillary is the only candidate that I personally feel is qualified to be President.

Health Care: WHY do we pay MORE and GET LESS?
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/con tent/full/hlthaff.28.1.w1/DC1

by architek on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:16:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

Hillary is the only candidate that I personally feel is qualified to be President. That's a subjective opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, but if I stated the opposite subjective opinion regarding Obama do you think that would advance the discussion here or materially change anyone's point of view?

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 1)

It is a tricky business sometimes and the abuse can be fairly thick. It reminds me of dealing with wounded animals, frankly.

Heh. What a horribly depressing analogy...

I encourage you to continue taking the abuse, if you can stand it. Some of the animosity many of us feel toward Obama has as much to do with his supporters' behavior as his own. Properly-behaved, reasonable Obama supporters really do reflect well on their candidate. It's easier to vote for someone when you aren't of the opinion that only assholes support him.

Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.

by sricki on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

I readily agree and do try, give or take the occasional snark, to keep it collegial. I find the best way is to enter into dialogue with similarly inclined posters from the opposition, like yourself and many others, and hopefully set some kind of example.

There are more than a few Hillary supporters whom I genuinely like here, even some with very strong opinions or views diametrically opposed to my own. That is the thing that keeps me optimistic. A little good will, and sense of humour, goes a long way here.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some unforseen event (2.00 / 1)

How many of your days go by without some unforseen event?

It's arrogant and insulting to pretend you're the only one who sees reality. Let me just say that I have a similar opinion about your grasp of reality--but I'm not bringing it up voluntarily, only in self-defense because you've already insulted mine.

There are still 689 primary delegates to be elected, not to mention over 700 total superdelegates who can change their votes at a whim if the news cycles make it seem like the smart thing to do.

- when Clinton has the momentum

- when the news cycles are turning against Obama for the first time in this campaign

- when either Florida and Michigan will get a revote or else Obama will be wearing a vote-obstructionist albatross around his neck

- when the Wright viral videos will swamp the internet

- when the Rezko trial is going on

- when only one-half of the primary season, by time, has run (we're 2-1/2 months away from Iowa and 2-1/2 months away from Puerto Rico), leaving plenty of time for trends to develop (remember when the elder Bush's approval rating went from 91% to 28% in a little over a year?)

If you think there is no realistic change to make up a 125-vote deficit in this scenario . . . well, I won't finish that sentence. But really, that whole Kos "coup" idea is overly aggressive and more than a little obnoxious. As Clinton's political opponent, she doesn't and shouldn't accept your counsel on how to run her campaign. Your advice must be presumed to be in bad faith. Especially when offered so incessantly.

by Trickster on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:02:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (none / 0)

I agree with your position that the race is far from over, while surely the odds are still in Obama's favor at this point.

But cut Shaun a little slack. He did say "Barring some unforeseen event" after all, which is much more than many Obama people are willing to say. He did not say "I guess Clinton supporters can't do math," or some such obnoxious jibe. That kind of juvenile trash talk is what I would like Obama folks to keep to themselves.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (2.00 / 1)

So what you're saying really is that we should hold Obama supporters to the standard of impetuous children? Whenever they don't abuse us or insult our intelligence then they should be commended...?

Frankly, I don't care much for them, their inevitability meme, nor for their tone. If I'm to support Obama, should he be the nominee, he himself - not his supporters - will have to earn that support.

Re-elect the President in 2012

by DemAC on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:19:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (none / 0)

Well that's fair enough. Consider, however, the inevitability narrative was the stick that Obama supporters were poked with for many long months before the Iowa caucus. What comes around goes around, though I am not excusing arrogance. Frankly the thing that bugs me most about some Hillary supporters is the endless repetition of smears which are not supported by fact, one gives up refuting these and citing references, especially where the same poster continues to make these accusations even when they've been effectively or essentially disproved in the past. It is very frustrating and lowers the standards of evidence and argument.

Having said that things actually seem to be improving a little since the influx of Daily Kos people.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (none / 0)

> the endless repetition of smears which are not supported by fact, one gives up refuting these and citing references, especially where the same poster continues to make these accusations even when they've been effectively or essentially disproved in the past.

Yes. I hope you will not disagree when I say the same applies to some Obama supporters. If you do disagree, I would just ask you to type "Vince Foster" or something similar in the search window,and see the dozens of posts that come up.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (none / 0)

I agree. Kenneth Starr refuted that accusation himself.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (none / 0)

> we should hold Obama supporters to the standard of impetuous children?

Yes, pretty much. And I would like Clinton supporters to be held to the same minimum standard. It would be a marked improvement over the "discourse" we have been enjoying lately.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (none / 0)

Good point.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some unforseen event (none / 0)

I certainly agree that 'a day is a long time in politics.' On the other hand, though I don't subscribe to this position, those who are concerned about the damage to our nominee's prospects by a protracted primary are entitled to their opinions too.

I don't agree with that argument now, but if this went all the way to the convention and we had only three months to reframe our message for the general election that might be a problem.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 1)

Shaun, you are definitely not one of the people I had in mind when I wrote this. You have been cordial and respectful to everyone for the entire campaign, IMHO. Maybe you could prevail upon some of your Obama compatriots to emulate your example.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:51:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

Well, thanks. I actually started out over a year ago being far more emotive, polemic and declamatory but realised it just doesn't work.

The best we can do I find is maintain some standards, where we have the patience to uphold them, by example. The more Hillary and Obama supporters are prepared to engage in respectful dialogue the more the tone of the site will improve, hopefully.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 0)

Wounded ANIMALS? Excuse me, but that kind of condescension is exactly the kind of garbage that makes some of us Hillary supporters really dislike the Obama crowd.

Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!

by aurelius on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

Apologies, it was perhaps an inept metaphor. What I mean is that I have been sometimes rather harshly insulted when I have merely challenged an assertion or questioned a poster's position. In some cases where I have attempted some conciliatory comment it has instantly been used as a further line for scathing attack. I can be pretty snarky and snippy myself sometimes but generally try to keep it clean.

The only way to deal with the most egregious and emotive posters, I have found, is to ignore them. I find it depressing to attempt a dialogue when it just stays accusatory and ugly. The stereotypes are the most damaging part, the narratives of Obama or Hillary supporters being this or that caricature instead of real human beings. I find that genuinely offensive.

by Shaun Appleby on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

I accept your apology. I get insulted as well by the BHO crowd and I am really tired of it. Maybe we as a community should all try to clean up our collective act--I'm going to write a diary about this soon. The republicans should be the true target of our wrath, not each other.

Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!

by aurelius on Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 12:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

Hope we can meet halfway. We gotta' win this one somehow and the prospects are good.

by Shaun Appleby on Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 01:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 1)

Dear Hillary supporters:

I admire your dedication to your candidate. She is amazingly resilient, and shows a political willpower and fiery determination that is unmatched. I think if this were any other year I have ever witnessed, she would be steamrolling her way to the presidency, and she would steamroll McCain right along with it.

(I'm an Obama supporter, but I have to say, the idea of watching Hillary debate McCain actually gives me giggles. I want to see Hillary attack when McCain says something absurd like, "I want to see interest rates go to 0.")

I also do not believe it is impossible for her to win. I think it is highly unlikely, but if she manages to outperform in the remaining contests and finishes very strongly, I can imagine sufficient superdelegate support to put her over the top.

I have a whole bunch of pro-Clinton factoids and references built up and ready if she clinches it.

I mean this in the best way, I hope you have as much enthusiasm for digging up dirt on McCain if Obama wins, because if so, 19% Jr is in deep trouble.

by mattw on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:19:00 AM EST

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 1)

(I'm an Obama supporter, but I have to say, the idea of watching Hillary debate McCain actually gives me giggles. I want to see Hillary attack when McCain says something absurd like, "I want to see interest rates go to 0.")

I think that's one of the things I'll miss the most if she loses the nomination. Maybe I'm just an especially lame, wonky nerd, but I've been gleefully fantasizing about match-ups between Hillary and all the viable GOP candidates for months. I bet any shrink worth his/her salt would tell me that's not the way a "healthy" person thinks and functions...

Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.

by sricki on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:37:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 1)

Thank you. I hope you can persuade other Obama supporters to tone down the trash talk, even - no, especially if they think Obama is inevitable.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:22:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 1)

It wasn't that long ago that Hillary was inevitable.
But, unlike Obama, that was back before anyone had voted.

The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.

by Liberal Avenger on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:20:01 AM EST

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

I wasn't posting back then, just lurking. But I cringed to read it from Hillary supporters as well. I think some of it is just impatience to get to the conclusion, but democracy does not always adhere to plans and schedules. Just let the votes happen and we will all see the results.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.

by Liberal Avenger on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 12:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly. Diary highly rec'd. (none / 0)

Obama supporters could stop calling Hillary and her supporters RACISTS and RACE-BAITERS. That would be a huge step in the right direction.

Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.

by sricki on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:27:25 AM EST

Re: Exactly. Diary highly rec'd. (2.00 / 1)

Baby steps, sricki, baby steps. :-)

At this point, I am just trying to get people to realize that winning the primary is only the start, and the hard work of building a winning coalition for the GE needs to get started.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:26:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Small correction... (2.00 / 1)

winning the primary AND winning the GE are both the first baby steps.

The hard work starts after somebody wins...

We (the people) think that democracies work only during election time, and that has been a problem all along !!

If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi

by SevenStrings on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:06:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Small correction... (none / 0)

Totally agree. Here are two examples - the first one from Obama supporter Kathleen Geier, in a TPM Cafe article http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/200 8/02/05/barack_obama_is_not_jesus/#more

... a Democratic president is essential. And the small differences between Clinton and Obama are infinitesimal indeed when compared to the differences between either of them and any of the Republicans.

There's a famous story about FDR meeting with a group of reformers trying to persuade him to support one of their goals. After they finished speaking, FDR said to them, "You've convinced me. I want to do it. Now make me do it."

We need to remember that -- that the next president will do the right thing only if there are incentives (in the form of massive political pressure) for him or her to do so.

And for an example of what happens when the public tunes out between elections, look no further than our current occupant, who said after the 2004 election.

We had an accountability moment, and that's called the 2004 elections.

The fact that Bush felt he could get away with such a statement speaks volumes.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama supporter here (none / 0)

Obama supporter here

Neither Hillary nor Bill are racist. I have supported Obama for most of the election but I never understood these charges that have been lodged against them. They may have chosen their words ineptly (esp. in comparing LBJ and MLK), but their records of supporting civil rights should be enough to give them more than the benefit of the doubt.

by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:55:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporter here (none / 0)

I am convinced 80% or more of the racial tension is media driven.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporter here (none / 0)

You can bet a big hunk of the other 20% is driven by Republicans. I had a Republican I know ask me how I could speak well of Bill Clinton after the "racist" things he said in SC. I asked him to name one and he went silent. Lets not let the rightwingers drive a wedge between us and spoil what should be a historic victory for progressive ideas in Nov.

by DreamsOfABlueNation on Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 03:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary has already won (none / 0)

It's all over but the shouting. Hillary will be our nominee. Obama's character is far too flawed to be a viable candidate. His failure to leave that awful church was his undoing. End of story. For more, see:

The Obama Bargain
By SHELBY STEELE

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12057953 5818243439.html

by Nobama on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:27:53 AM EST

Re: Hillary has already won (none / 0)

You are gonna use a right wing paper like the Wall Street Journal as a source? What's next, the Weekly Standard?

by Toddwell on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary has already won (2.00 / 1)

AAAAAGHHH! The "Hillary is inevitable" people are back!

Read these words now: Nobody is inevitable. Stop trying to play these sophomoric mind games. Pretty please???

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:16:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary has already won (none / 0)

Itsthemedia, I was really into your comments until this one...all was quite cool! So...

What makes you think the "Obama is inevitable people" ever left? (As you imply here?)

by bobswern on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary has already won (none / 0)

Perhaps I was unclear. I did not mean to imply that I thought the "Obama is inevitable people" had gone. Obviously they have not, as one of them felt compelled to post in this very thread farther down. I was just dismayed to see that the "Hillary is inevitable people" are back (or maybe they never left).

I want everybody to just chill out and stop trying to break the spirit of their opponents (who, with any luck, will soon be their allies). To the extent that these inevitability people succeed, they are driving people out of the process (best case), or into the enemy camp (worst case).

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Obama Bargain (none / 0)

Bargaining-that article and that word struck a cord with me. Back in the 70s I was a buyer for Raytheon and my co-worker was a single black woman raising 4 sons. I also was a single mom with a daughter.

A promotion came up and was offered to me as I ran circles around this lady on the job. It was also the time of affirmative action-is that the correct term? So being the nice person I always was, I stepped aside thinking this lady needed the money more than I since she had more kids to support.

I don't regret doing that but after reading
that article I realize that this bargaining so that I wouldn't look racist is exactly what it was. I had an element of 'guilt-thinking'
in my decision- she has it rougher than me so to speak.

I think that's fine on one to one decisions, but not on a position as crucial as the presidency. I have not one doubt that Hillary is far
more experienced and ready for the POTUS than Obama.

Obama for POTUS is not a bargain we can afford to make. Maybe down the road when he is older and wiser.

Honesty is always the best Policy. Go Hillary Go!

by roseeriter on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:11:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Obama Bargain (none / 0)

While I don't really agree with the conclusions the author makes, the article is interesting at an academic level. It made me think about my own past associations, and the implicit bargains that we all make. It also makes sense of at least part of the Obama phenomenon, in a way that no other explananation has done to my satisfaction.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (1.00 / 1)

We're just reminding the Super Delegates that they better not screw with the will of the people while at the same time , trying to get Hillary Supporters used to the fact that Obama will be the Democratic Nominee because we won't have that much time to pass out the kleen-ex in June.

"I don't oppose all wars...what I do oppose, is a dumb war" ~ Barack Obama

by BlueDiamond on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:38:59 AM EST

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 1)

You just pushed me over the edge. Save your Kleenex. You're going to need it to cry into for the coming 8 YEARS of John McCain. People like you suck.

Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!

by aurelius on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:02:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Talk about a tin ear (2.00 / 2)

Of all the diaries available to post that kind of remark, why would you pick the ONE in the entire bunch that was written asking people to stop doing that kind of thing. Kleenex?

Quiz question: who likes to say "We can disagree without being disagreeable."?

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:13:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (2.00 / 0)

Screw with the will of the people?

What if HRC has the lead or it's a virtual tie in the popular vote? That would be the will of the people.

What if the Dems in Florida and Michigan--two of our largest states population-wise--were allowed to cast their delegate votes at the convention? That would be the will of the people.

What if the Superdelegates exercised their totally legitimate right to vote as they saw fit? According to most recent polls among Democrats on this issue, a slim majority would prefer that the Superdelegates were actually encouraged and enabled to do that! That would be the will of the people.

What if public sentiment significantly turned in favor of Senator Clinton in coming days and weeks? That would be the will of the people.

According to the will of the people in the Democratic Party, last I checked, there was no movement afoot to affect this election cycle's protocols within the Democratic Party to CHANGE the rules as they related to the Superdelegates' rights to vote as they personally saw fit? By default, that would be the will of the people.

Are you talking about "the will of the Obama people?" Or, are you talking about the "will of ALL the Democratic people?"

by bobswern on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:24:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Popular vote (none / 0)

I am an Obama supporter, but I agree if Hillary has a lead in the popular vote (including the thus far unreported caucuses) she will have a stronger argument for the nomination. Granted, the system is not set up to award the nomination to the popular vote winner but I would not be wholly opposed to seeing the SD's use their votes to do so. It is simply more reflective of the principles underlying democracy to do what the majority of people want. That said, however, there is no such thing as a "virtual tie", if, by convention time, Obama is ahead in pledged delegates and by even 1 popular vote, Hillary should concede.

by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:03:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular vote (none / 0)

I will make this prediction. If, by convention time, one of the two has a majority of delegates (including committed supers) the other will concede. If not, neither will give way without some major concession from the other, be it the VP spot, cabinet posts for certain allies, policy concessions, or what have you. Why should either one concede? They each have a lot of people in their coalition, and in a democracy, that translates to power.

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular vote (none / 0)

I agree that certain concessions should be made. I would go so far as to say that Obama should make such concessions EVEN IF he wins a majority of delegates by the convention. Ideally, I would like to see Hillary as his VP. I don't think that Hillary would request any policy concessions, however, given that her philosophy is nearly identical to Obama's.

"Why should either one concede?"

If Obama leads the pledged delegates and popular vote, then Hillary should concede because she cares about the fate of the party. Overturning the results of the primaries with the votes of SD's, while technically a possibility under the party rules, would be widely considered to be undemocratic and illegitimate. This will lead many in the party to avoid voting for Hillary as our nominee and will hurt our chances in Nov. If we care more about seeing Hillary's policies enacted than we do about seeing her personally assume the role of President, than concession is the only rational option.

by DreamsOfABlueNation on Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 03:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

People ask well how could he have been there for 20 years and not walk away.
Simple really. He is a biracial man who wanted to get ahead in Chicago politics. He needed the votes of those in those churches. Doesn't mean he had to agree with it. But it does mean, if he didnt go there, they would never have voted him in and we would never have the Obama we have today.

by ListenNOW on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:53:00 AM EST

Your Point Is Well-Taken (2.00 / 1)

...and speaking for myself, I think the reason many of us try to reason with the HRC crowd is to get them to understand that the longer we allow this race to go on, the more the rancor and vitriol is produced...meanwhile McCain travels the globe unfettered by our collective resources.

It is frustrating...truly FRUSTRATING that we are forced to sit back knowing that everyday is a lost opportunity to define McCain when the outcome is so certain.

My orediction is that sometime in May, BO will get to 2025 with a miture of Supers and elected delegates. When THAT happens, Hillary will be forced to acknoledge it and exit. Hopefully she'll do it before that time, but THAT will be an important day.

Yes getting to that # with a mixture of supers and elected delegates will be largely symbolic, but it will be percieved by the masses and the media as an important milestone, and any actions by Hillary at that moment will have the unfortunate apprearence of a candidate trying to take something away from the winner.

Frustrating.

I agree though. i will try to be better.

by a gunslinger on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:00:15 AM EST

Re: Your Point Is Well-Taken (none / 0)

Contrary to popular wisdom, as promulgated by the Obama campaign, Hillary Clinton will not "do or say anything to win". If Obama gets to the magic number, and MI and FL are accounted for in some reasonable way, she will step aside, and fall in line.

I disagree that the mere act of letting the remaining states vote will necessarily cause more rancor and vitriol, or that McCain will necessarily get a free ride. The media is framing it as "McCain gains momentum as Dems bicker", but an equally valid frame is "McCain strives for relevance as historic Dem nomination contest unfolds".

Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.

by itsthemedia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 07:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the "Obama is Inevitable" folks (none / 0)

Actually, this is precisely what I've been trying to do, mend the fences, so to speak, because we need to be united as a party. The only people this is helping is the Republicans.

Obama's going to get the nomination, there is no doubt about it. So we need to work towards finding what rifts there are between Clinton and Obama supporters and find out what will mend them.

Serious question- Is This Snark?

by ragekage on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:50:14 AM EST

Inevitability (none / 0)

Speaking as an Obama supporter, I do not feel that it is inevitable for Obama to win the nomination. However, the only path I see for Clinton to win the nod involves tactics that will seriously weaken our chances in the GE. Hillary supporters are right to point out that -- barring large upsets in remaing contests -- neither candidate can win solely on pledged delegates. However, if Obama merely breaks even in the contests to come he will have enough delegates to win without gaining support of any more SD's than have already endorsed him. Given that in such a scenario Obama would lead in both pledged delegates and popular vote, most SD's would flock to his campaign. Hillary however, needs not only strong performances in remaining contests but also needs to convince SD's to put her over the top despite the fact that she will trail in pledged delegates and popular vote. Most observers would view overturning the expressed preferences of the voters this way as highly illegitimate. The multitude of diaries calling for unity behaind Obama reflect this sense that a vote for Hillary is a vote for chaos at the convention and ill-will beyond.

by DreamsOfABlueNation on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 09:16:06 AM EST

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